Psalm 139:15, 16 "pre-destination"? | ||||
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Some Bible translations interpret these verses in such a way as to indicate that pre-destination is being taught here. Others render it instead with the thought that Jehovah has "written down" the pattern (DNA code?) of the developing embryo.
Literal word-for-word renderings from Hebrew interlinears:
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament tells us about yatsar, the ancient Hebrew word in question here: "form, shape (as a potter) - 1. subj. men: form, fashion: .... 2. subj. God: create, form (older, concrete synonym of bara) .... be formed Ps. 139:16." - p. 141, Eerdmans, 1988.
Some Bible translations of Ps. 139:15, 16:
Ps. 139:16 - "Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." - BBE Ps. 139:16 "Thy eyes saw my substance, not yet formed; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." - Webster's The wording of verse 16 is a little obscure. Coupled with that is the possible ambiguity for the Hebrew word yatsar. The New American Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Holman Bible Publishers, 1981, tells us yatsar literally means "to form, fashion," but it has been rendered in the New American Standard Bible in the following ways: Creator (1), devises (1), earthenware (1), fashion (1), fashioned (1), fashioning (2), fashions (1), formed (20), forming (2), forms (2), made (1), Maker (4), maker (2), ordained (1), planned (4), potter (9), potter's (7), potters (1). Obviously, the majority of renderings (56) mean "form or create" (including "potter"), but in 5 instances the NASB translators have rendered it as "planned" or "ordained." It is this possible meaning that probably has allowed some translators to interpret the somewhat obscure Hebrew phrasing as intending "pre-destination" or something similar. Young's Concordance, however, shows that the KJV translators rendered yatsar only once as "purpose" and all others (60) with the meanings synonymous with "form, fashion, make," etc. That single instance is found at Is. 46:11 - "I have spoken it, I will bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." - KJV. Since this is the only time yatsar is interpreted as "purposed" (at least in the KJV), it seems more likely that it also should have been rendered as "formed." This is even more proper when we see that the above-quoted part of Is. 46:11 is a parallelism. That is, the first half is close in meaning to the second half. (Poetic repetition for emphasis and effect.) Since the second half of the first statement ("I will bring it to pass") is obviously parallel (and equal) to the second half of the second statement ("I will also do it"), we might expect the first half of the first statement ("I have spoken it") to be parallel (and equal) to the first half of the second statement. In that case "I have spoken it" might better be paralleled by "I have formed (yatsar) it [the word or words spoken]." * This not only fits the parallel better, but makes the translation of yatsar consistent throughout the KJV. The ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (which is frequently quoted in the New Testament), the Septuagint, translates yatsar as "created" (ktizo) in the Is. 46:11 passage examined above. More importantly it translates the last part of Ps. 139:16 itself as "of-day they-shall-be-formed [plasthesontai] and nothing among them." The Hebrew word yatsar, then, was translated here by the ancient Greek word plasthesontai which, again, means "formed or molded," not "purposed" or "ordained" (see Thayer, #4111 and Septuagint). The following translations render yatsar at Ps. 139:16 as "formed," "made," "fashioned," etc. (not "ordained" or "planned"): KJV; NKJV; RSV; NRSV; NEB; REB; AT; BBE; NAB (1991); LITV; MKJV; Tanakh; Young's; JPS 1917; Byington; Rotherham; Darby; and Webster's; etc. But even if yatsar could be honestly rendered as "purposed" or even "ordained," it is obviously a rare occurrence, and we would be safer in assuming it means "formed," "fashioned," etc. unless context demanded otherwise. It seems more likely to me that, given the probable meaning of yatsar and the literal wording of the actual Hebrew (and Greek of the Septuagint), pre-destination is not being taught in these verses. ----- See Insight book article on "Foreknowledge, Foreordination". ................................................................. NOTE * Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible; KJIIV (and MKJV); ETRV ("made"); Septuagint ("created"). |
Looked at by Marcus Ampe from a Christian viewpoint.
De wereld bekeken vanuit een Christelijke visie door Marcus Ampe
Showing posts with label predestinatie. Show all posts
Showing posts with label predestinatie. Show all posts
Wednesday, 14 January 2009
Yatsar
Monday, 5 January 2009
The Word being a quality or aspect of God Himself
Teddy Trublood wrote:
"Word" and 1 John 5:7, KJV
(KJV) 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Some of us have met persons who believe that God is only one person, but that he has been in different forms at times (the Father or the Son). They are often called "Oneness" believers.
Because most of them believe that these two persons did not both exist at the same time (therefore keeping God as one person alone), they deny the pre-existence of the Son. Especially do they deny that 'the Word' at John 1 was the Son. To do this they insist that the Word at this point was simply a quality or aspect of God Himself and not another person who was with God (the Father). Most of them will say that Jesus only came into existence as a person when he was born on earth.
(KJV) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
It is difficult to prove to them that the Word in John 1 was actually a person in heaven who became Jesus. (I try to reason on Phil. 2:5-8, 1Jn 4:9; etc.)
It may be helpful to use 1 John 5:7 for any of those "Oneness" folks who also believe the KJV is the best (or only) English translation to be used by Christians.
Notice that this spurious addition to scripture in the KJV uses "Word."
So, for those who insist on using the KJV, here is evidence for "the Word" being a person who was with God in the beginning being back as the same person with God again.
To which I reply:
Christ was the word "made flesh" (John 1:14) The Word expresses the divine intention, mind or purpose.
"Logos" does not in itself denote personality.(masculine gender in AV; Diaglott in the neuter) You can compare it with wisdom which is personified as a woman. (Proverbs 8:1,2,22, 23)
The creation was accompanied by the word, i.e. Gods speaking. (Gen.1:3; John 1:7,8) (Ps. 33:6,9; 107:20; 147:15,18,19; Isa 55:11) "By the word of Jehovah the heavens were made"
“For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: {standing: Gr. consisting}” (2Pe 3:5 AV) “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.” (2Pe 3:7 AV) Kept in store by the same word.
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb 11:3 AV)
“He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, [there is] a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. {multitude: or, noise} {with: or, for}” (Jer 10:12-13 AV)
God's Word was with God (and in God), but angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his Logos. Though Christ is the complete manifestation of the Logos. When the "word was made flesh" (Jo 1:14) Christ became the manifestation of the Word (Re 19:13; Lu 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from Jehovah his Father (Jo 7:16;17:14)
Php 2:6-7 does not mean being originally before he was born the image and glory of God, but rather being the image of God and continuing to be (1Co 11:7)
Born out of the Father he could be the most high of all men, because the others had a human father and mother, while Christ only a human mother but the heavenly Father.
Although Christ was in the form of God in his semblance and demeanour, he took on him the semblance and demeanour of a slave. (learning obedience Heb 5:8,9)(washing feet: Jo 13:14) Submitting his will to that of his Father.
"Word" and 1 John 5:7, KJV
(KJV) 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Some of us have met persons who believe that God is only one person, but that he has been in different forms at times (the Father or the Son). They are often called "Oneness" believers.
Because most of them believe that these two persons did not both exist at the same time (therefore keeping God as one person alone), they deny the pre-existence of the Son. Especially do they deny that 'the Word' at John 1 was the Son. To do this they insist that the Word at this point was simply a quality or aspect of God Himself and not another person who was with God (the Father). Most of them will say that Jesus only came into existence as a person when he was born on earth.
(KJV) John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
It is difficult to prove to them that the Word in John 1 was actually a person in heaven who became Jesus. (I try to reason on Phil. 2:5-8, 1Jn 4:9; etc.)
It may be helpful to use 1 John 5:7 for any of those "Oneness" folks who also believe the KJV is the best (or only) English translation to be used by Christians.
Notice that this spurious addition to scripture in the KJV uses "Word."
So, for those who insist on using the KJV, here is evidence for "the Word" being a person who was with God in the beginning being back as the same person with God again.
To which I reply:
Christ was the word "made flesh" (John 1:14) The Word expresses the divine intention, mind or purpose.
"Logos" does not in itself denote personality.(masculine gender in AV; Diaglott in the neuter) You can compare it with wisdom which is personified as a woman. (Proverbs 8:1,2,22, 23)
The creation was accompanied by the word, i.e. Gods speaking. (Gen.1:3; John 1:7,8) (Ps. 33:6,9; 107:20; 147:15,18,19; Isa 55:11) "By the word of Jehovah the heavens were made"
“For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: {standing: Gr. consisting}” (2Pe 3:5 AV) “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men.” (2Pe 3:7 AV) Kept in store by the same word.
“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Heb 11:3 AV)
“He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, [there is] a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. {multitude: or, noise} {with: or, for}” (Jer 10:12-13 AV)
God's Word was with God (and in God), but angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his Logos. Though Christ is the complete manifestation of the Logos. When the "word was made flesh" (Jo 1:14) Christ became the manifestation of the Word (Re 19:13; Lu 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from Jehovah his Father (Jo 7:16;17:14)
Php 2:6-7 does not mean being originally before he was born the image and glory of God, but rather being the image of God and continuing to be (1Co 11:7)
Born out of the Father he could be the most high of all men, because the others had a human father and mother, while Christ only a human mother but the heavenly Father.
Although Christ was in the form of God in his semblance and demeanour, he took on him the semblance and demeanour of a slave. (learning obedience Heb 5:8,9)(washing feet: Jo 13:14) Submitting his will to that of his Father.
Labels:
1 John 5:7,
Being One,
Form of God,
jesus,
jezus,
johannes,
John 1:1,
logos,
manifestation,
Oneness,
pre-existence of christ,
predestinatie,
prophet,
quality of God,
trinity,
voorbestaan,
woordvangod,
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