If Satan is a person and when there are angels who did not want to follow God, where do they stay?
In case Devils were originally angels-with-angel-'bodies' but fell in the rebellion of the past (Genesis 6--the demon possessed Kings, and the violence in the earth)did They 'left their habitation' or 'abandoned their sphere of authority' (in heaven, a la Jude/2Pet) and came to earth to possess human bodies--in a Satan-led power grab, perhaps to experience OUR kind of sensory 'escape'(?). This would entail that they gave up their 'angelic bodies' to indwell humans. But living in humans would mean that we do have a spirit living in us, or that a demon (as a sort of person) can live in us. The ring-leaders of the rebellion (except Satan) were cast into the abyss (Jude/2Pet again) But then would not all the other spirits lost their hosts /in the Flood/? In case there are still devils hovering around they became it after the flood.They were not consigned to the abyss /yet/ then--so they continue to needhosts (now that they cannot get their old 'angelic' bodies back).
2 Peter 2: 4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgement; 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
When devils or evil spirits are being fallen angels would they not be punished and being destroyed by God? The fallen angels or the angels that did not keep within their original authority and left their own habitation are kept in darkness. Is there not meant under the ground?
Jude: 6 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Would this not mean that all those angels are like the dead people without life and without a conscious body, feeling nothing and being just like dead? Shall they not be saved up to appear at the end of times by the judgement day because God hold the wicked until the Day of Judgement?
2 Peter 2: 9 Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people for the day of judgement to be cut off, 10 especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship.
Paul Leonard answers:
ReplyDeleteThese verses pre dates Revelation. These may refer ONLY to those that revolted in Noah's day. In Revelation we hear of 1/3 the starts following Satan and a battle in heaven. ALL demons/fallen angels cannot be inactive or no war IN heaven and no 1/3 following Satan, etc.
= So would he assume they live in heaven?
Moto bl wrote: Like AnotherPaul noted, a lot can be discerned by looking at the timeline.
Apparently the disobedient angels were cast into Tartarus in "Noah's days":
"In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water." (1Pe 3:19, 20),
But one may wonder... if their condition really were like the dead people without life and without a conscious body, then how could they have been "preached to"?
Paul speaks of the disobedient angels as being in "heavenly places" from which they exercise a rule of darkness as wicked spirit forces: "Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places." (Eph 6:10-12)
So considering the above, the "dense darkness" that the disobedient angels are in suggests a condition (not of non-existence or unconsciousness, but of) being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from His family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny.
Steve Klemetti wrote: > Satan lives with Osama bin Laden and the others.<
Yes Steve, the badness or evil is everywhere there are people who have badness in them.
It is their thinking. It is they themselves who are bad. (By their own way of thinking)
ASV/Calvin write: the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
ReplyDeleteMHM: wicked spirit-beings in the Celestialum
Webster:/AVRL: spiritual wickedness in high places.
BBE: the spirits of evil in the heavens.
Rotherham: the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenlies.
HSVNTPS: in the air
So it could be in higher places or in spaces which are heavenly, which also could denote spaces on this earth with the character of heaven. But as certain freer translation denote could it be that it is at the "unseen world around us" (Book)
When it is in heaven, where we take it that God and the good angels live, this would mean they live together, so you would find the good ones and bad ones in the same place to face God? And would they be able to do badness in front of God?
Hans Eschbach, preacher-director of the "Evangelisch Werkverband binnen de Protestantse Kerk" finds that devils or demons can come into a person.
ReplyDeleteThough he is aware that it can be that a person is just schizophrenic. But he thinks you can recognise it when a person is posessed.
A brochure is brought out. In it it says: De ,,vurige pijlen die Satan op ons afvuurt'' hebben vaak te maken hebben met onze gedachten ,,Het verraderlijke is dat je denkt dat het je eigen gedachten zijn, terwijl ze door Satan worden ingefluisterd - zowel in de ik- als in de jij-vorm. Hij wil in ons denken een bastion oprichten.'' So the devil in that person would speak to him or her.
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De werkgroep 'Genezing en bevrijding' van het EW houdt op woensdag 27 mei in de Immanuëlkerk in Ermelo onder de titel 'Verlos ons van den boze' een studiedag over bevrijdingspastoraat.
>demonen-op-de-agenda-evangelischen-in-pkn> http://www.nd.nl/artikelen/2009/mei/06/demonen-op-de-agenda-evangelischen-in-pkn
Moto_bl wrote:
ReplyDeleteJob 1:6 shows us that Satan, and presumably the disobedient angels as well, were allowed in heaven during the time of Job. (It is generally accepted that this account occurred after the disobedient angels sinned in Noah's time):
"Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them." (The following verses makes it very clear that the area talked about here is in heaven.)
But I find it interesting how the account in Rev.12:7-9 phrases it when Satan and his angels were finally cast out of heaven. It says, "neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven":
"And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."
So when the above account happened, it appears that Satan and his angels were no longer able to have access to heaven and are now confined to the earth.
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Travelingman 1352 writes:
According to Rev. 12, Satan and his angels are obviously not welcome in heaven anymore. But the question: "Where does Satan live?" is a good one. I'm wondering if Satan and his angels are confined to just the vicinity of the Earth or are they able to move about the whole physical universe? If they are able to move about the whole universe, then I would suspect that this could be a fair indication that there is no other intelligent life anywhere else in the whole universe to bother with since they seem to spend all of their time and energy here.
But if they are confined to Earth's gravity well, then would that mean that they would not have any influence or control over anyone or anything beyond that? Humans have traveled to the Moon, however, technically we have never really left Earth's gravity well because the Moon is captured by Earth's gravity. If humans actually make the trip to Mars in the future, THEN we would really have left Earth. But if Satan and his angels really are confined to Earth, then would they appreciate the fact that humans could do something that even they are not allowed to do? Something tells me that they would not allow that to happen. All of this is, of course, if they really are only confined to the earth.
Marcus Ampe & Belgische Christadelphians wrote: But staying on earth we can not see them, nor feel them?
ReplyDeleteDebralyn Potter replies:
The previous scripture tells us he is "misleading" the entire earth.That would be,for instance making things Jehovah tells us is wrong to be right. He does this in order for us to turn away from our Father.
examples: Gay people marrying, living together without marriage,not loving our neighbor,being vengeful, stealing, walking out of the store realizing the checker forgot to charge us for something. Anything against Jehovah is Satan tempting us to do wrong.
1 Peter 5:8 tells us that satan is right here roaring like a lion seeking to devour someone, or take someone in by tempting us to his wrong side.Then it is clear in verse 9 tells us that this suffering is happening to all of us.
Yes we feel them all the time in how the earth is being ran by Satan. All that evilness, all the lies politicians tell, imperfection is all from Satan,not our father Jehovah.
In my experience in bettering me to please Jehovah, I learned how easily Satan and his demons influence us! I don't use profanity, I don't lie, I will take a pen back if I accidently take one,I bear no false witness which I was shocked that I did.
Luke 16:10 tells us a person faithful in the lease is faithful in much. Then who is unrighteous in the least is also unrighteous in much
Hope this helped. love,debilyn
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To wich I would utter: But the evilness comes from within characters. Would you not consider that it are the persons themselves, like we (christadelphians) do believe that evil is?
On the other side you indicate very well how evil can be felt by everybody. And we should be aware that it can overcome anybody. So we have to work against it.
Hi Marcus,
ReplyDeleteSince "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom" (1Co 15:50-54), it would stand to reason that only spirit creatures can appear in heaven. The Scriptures then indicate that Satan and his angels are spirit creatures, for they appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Re 12:9) Being spirit creatures, (or non-physical beings) they would be invisible to humans for the same reason that God is invisible to human eyes:
"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him." (John 1:18)
"Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, [the] only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (1 Tim. 1:17)
The Bible mentions how angels in the past were capable of materializing human form and appearing to men. But they are not by nature material or fleshly, and so they are invisible.
As for feeling them, I believe that Debilyn's message does a good job explaining how Satan and his angels' influence can be felt.
- Moto_bl
When devils would come into somebody, can that person get possessed by them and can others drive them out? In certain denominations there are preachers who say that they can expel the devil.
ReplyDeleteDebralyn Potter repl.:
ReplyDelete"Saying that because sometimes when people share their beliefs they are arrogant. oops I meant that sometimes others believe when another states how they see things as one being arrogant..."
She does not think the evil comes fromwithin man itself, because she also writes: "My view is that Adam and Eve were perfect until tempted by Satan. We were not made with anything negative."
Moto_bl writes:
There are many instances in the Bible where it describes Jesus expelling demons from possessed ones. (Mt 9:32; 12:22; Lu 9:42; 11:14)
Jesus also gave authority over the demons to his 12 apostles, and later to the 70 that he sent out, so that in the name of Jesus they too were able to cure the demon-possessed. (Mt 10:8; Mr 3:15; 6:13; Lu 9:1; 10:17)
But if certain denominations today claim that they can expel demons, is this unequivocal proof that they have Jesus' approval?
Consider the following:
"Many will say to me in that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not . . . expel demons in your name ?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." (Mt 7:22, 23)
Paul Leonard writes:
All of our desires and temptations do not come from Satan.
(James 1:14-15) 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.
We do not want to give more "credit" to Satan than he deserves.
We also do not want to give him to much attention, By deeply discussing his activities real or not, which he craves.
Debralyn Potter writes:
ReplyDeleteGreat questions. My first thought is of course it comes from individuals as Jehovah gives us all choice. They chose to be against our Father, and follow satan.
Remember how the angels,sons of God,chose as individuals to come to earth and mate with humans? Individual choice.
As far as demons inside us, in the Bible Jesus expelled demons,and gave his deciples the same ability. This was totally through Jehovah's holy spirit.
No man,preacher or whoever can release demons from someone. My feeling is when a person is feeling horribly tempted to do wrong, they are being encouraged by a demon. Since they are spirit,then they are touching our spirit or that what makes us who we are. This is what makes us pray for Jehovah's holy spirit to help us.
This is all my experience and what I have learned. I don't always believe I am right. Am imperfect too! Saying that because sometimes when people share their beliefs they are arrogant. I love Jehovah so much and am sooo thankful for his guide the Bible and his good people.
His earth is pretty nice too! love,debilyn
Like Debilyn says, we can be thankful for everything we get from our Father. And this earth has much goods to offer. I also think it is not right to think that most people are bad.
ReplyDeleteGeri Elmer opts:
ReplyDeleteWe were made with free will. Even though perfect, they chose the wrong path
Debralyn Potter writes:
I agree,without Satans temptation they may not have done it.. Free choice was so important as Jehovah did not want puppets.
Can you imagine how hurt Jehovah has been through all creation? That is what keeps me choosing with his heart in mind. Sure I would love eternal life on a paradise earth. However his feelings are number one to me as Jesus feelings are.
I have some people who cannot get that even though Jehovah knows all, does not mean he made us make the choices we do or did in the past.
I do have a question, when everyone was sent out with a different language to different lands, where did different colored skin come from? Asian eyes, etc?
Figured the people of Africa,the ones with skin that could handle the sun, were more likely to survive and keep creating even darker as time went on..
Then thought wait a minute what about eye shapes?
I don't get lost in this, only curious.
I do know that, but the question is, what would make those traits come out in almost all the people in that country.
Does that make sense? thanks for putting up with me! love,debilyn
This brings us to an other topic.
ReplyDeleteI think the different skincolors and differences in noses and eyes came from the evolution, the body adapting to the climates and the environment. (To protect against sun rays, light, temperature/ having the sin covered or not,etc)
Was it not the Creator His choice?
“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.” (Jer 13:23 ASV)
> Race, Skin color and differences > http://bijbelonderzoekers.multiply.com/journal/item/2563/Race_Skin_color_and_differences